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 How come Anthony doesn't like siteswaps?
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firesi
Level 1


United Kingdom
42 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  13:01:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would've thought that a notation that can show hundreds of juggliung patterns would be a good thing. I think it doesn't take into account piroettes or arty things, but surely its really useful to any juggler.

So why is Anthony so against them? Is it just because they're associated with sport juggling, or any other reason?

I'm not trying to cause an argument here, its just I've seen some dislike towards them from him and I'm just wondering why.

Dave Altman
Administrator



Georgia
621 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  13:36:11  Show Profile  Visit Dave Altman's Homepage Send Dave Altman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How come you didn't spell Anthony's name right and why did you feel the need to add his second name? If you say Anthony, we'll know who you are talking about.

I think part of the reason Anthony doesn't care for siteswaps, is some people's insistence that he has to learn siteswaps. He learned several so-called siteswap patterns without having to mess with learning the siteswap system, so after 30 years of juggling, why should he bother to learn them? Everyone is entitled to their own learning methods, aren't they?

I'll speak of my feelings on siteswaps and let Anthony give his views, if he cares to do so. I know siteswaps aren't math, but they are numbers. I don't naturally think of patterns as numbers, nor do I want to do that. At one time, I thought that I would learn them eventually, but I've changed my mind. I may change it again, but it is possible to juggle and juggle well without learning siteswaps. Yes, it's a convenient way to talk of patterns, but with all the parentheses and complexity, endless debates on whether a pattern is valid and arguments on what is the proper way to write a certain siteswap notation, it doesn't seem as convenient as I once thought.

It would be nice if siteswappers didn't try to push them onto people that don't want to learn them. There are enough people that are interested in learning them, so why not just talk about them among yourselves? It bugs me a little when people call a certain pattern that is much older than siteswap notation as a "siteswap pattern." There is no such thing, at least, in my mind. Just because a pattern can be described by using siteswaps, it shouldn't be called a siteswap pattern. That is like calling a certain piece of music as a "Sheet music song or composition."

Not all musicians read music and not all jugglers know siteswaps. A decade or two ago, no one knew siteswaps, so please let a few of us get away with not learning them, now. OK?


Dave, back to being a Variety Entertainer. "It's like anything that starts with the letter "V", is a dirty word." ~Carol Burnett

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malec
Level 1



Ireland
13 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  15:39:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, this is slightly off topic but want to say something.

I personally love the idea of siteswap but I can see why it's sometimes perceived as something bad. It's possible that for people who start off learning siteswap mightn't develop their creativity as much as others since they could just use the notation as a guide for new patterns as opposed to creating them from scratch which would involve more visualisation, trying things out, etc. People have the exact same argument with sheet music, some argue against it because you can breed a musician without them going through the whole "discovering" process.
Of course sheet music has its advantages since it allows certain music to be played which would otherwise be either impossible or just painfully difficult to do (example is an amazing piece called the Rite of Spring in which the beat changes every 2 seconds, it's incredibly difficult to memorize but not so hard to play if you can read music well).

Some problems I think siteswap has is that it's not very versatile. Not all music can be written down on paper but there are only a few exceptions. Sheet music is extremely adaptable and almost anything (even free sounding music which can be approximated) can be written down in a simple, logical, easy to understand and concise way. Siteswap on the other hand, can get incredibly complicated when trying to describe most tricks and it's not so easy to just approximate stuff like you can do in music.
Another problem is that siteswap is made up of numbers and for some numbers=maths=boring. I personally love maths and find many patterns that come out of it incredibly beautiful but it can be discouraging for some.

Siteswap is a relatively new invention so it's not yet clear what advantages it can give to stage performance. I think siteswap could help with acts where movement of the props is the main focus rather than movement of the performer. An example (which is one of my favourite juggling acts I think) is this:
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Anthough probably very difficult I think it may be possible to "sightread" siteswap (Maybe Ben Beever or Peter Bone can do this?). This might make certain acts easier to learn, I don't know.

Just a few ramblings, that's all.
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firesi
Level 1



United Kingdom
42 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  16:58:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Altman

How come you didn't spell Anthony's name right and why did you feel the need to add his second name? If you say Anthony, we'll know who you are talking about.



I misspelt his name because I'm not a robot.

quote:


I think part of the reason Anthony doesn't care for siteswaps, is some people's insistence that he has to learn siteswaps. He learned several so-called siteswap patterns without having to mess with learning the siteswap system, so after 30 years of juggling, why should he bother to learn them? Everyone is entitled to their own learning methods, aren't they?



I didn't ask why he doesn't learn them, I can totally understand that, I'm just curious as to why he seems to be against them.

quote:


I'll speak of my feelings on siteswaps and let Anthony give his views, if he cares to do so. I know siteswaps aren't math, but they are numbers. I don't naturally think of patterns as numbers, nor do I want to do that. At one time, I thought that I would learn them eventually, but I've changed my mind. I may change it again, but it is possible to juggle and juggle well without learning siteswaps. Yes, it's a convenient way to talk of patterns, but with all the parentheses and complexity, endless debates on whether a pattern is valid and arguments on what is the proper way to write a certain siteswap notation, it doesn't seem as convenient as I once thought.




I don't really get what you mean. I've never seen a debate about whether a pattern is valid, infact there are siteswap animators that will determine the validity straight away, nor have I seen arguments of the correct way to write a siteswap. It's always with the largest number first. And I don't see how you could comment on the complexity if you don't even know how they work. It's not actually that complex at all.

And althought it might not be so convenient that someone could say a siteswap, and you can instantly imagine what it looks like, its pretty close, and a whole lot more convenient than any other method of describing a trick.

quote:


It would be nice if siteswappers didn't try to push them onto people that don't want to learn them. There are enough people that are interested in learning them, so why not just talk about them among yourselves? It bugs me a little when people call a certain pattern that is much older than siteswap notation as a "siteswap pattern." There is no such thing, at least, in my mind. Just because a pattern can be described by using siteswaps, it shouldn't be called a siteswap pattern. That is like calling a certain piece of music as a "Sheet music song or composition."



Talking about siteswaps and trying to push people to learn them are completely different. The fact is, that whenever you're juggling you're doing a siteswap. Granted, the siteswap notation doesn't account for things like how many spins a club is doing or when you're doing a pirotette, but each trick can still be given a siteswap notation. My point is people will mension siteswaps so that other jugglers can understand more easily.

I can see how someone calling it a siteswap may annoy you though.

quote:

Not all musicians read music and not all jugglers know siteswaps. A decade or two ago, no one knew siteswaps, so please let a few of us get away with not learning them, now. OK?



No ones even asking you to learn them, I'm just wondering why some people seem to see them as a bad thing.


I found mealecs response very useful, but I don't think using siteswap notation limits your creativity at all. If anything it enhances it, because it becomes easier to recognise what sort of throws you can do after each other.
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Dave Altman
Administrator



Georgia
621 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  17:24:55  Show Profile  Visit Dave Altman's Homepage Send Dave Altman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by firesi
I misspelt his name because I'm not a robot.

I don't really get what you mean. I've never seen a debate about whether a pattern is valid, infact there are siteswap animators that will determine the validity straight away, nor have I seen arguments of the correct way to write a siteswap....And I don't see how you could comment on the complexity if you don't even know how they work. It's not actually that complex at all.

It's OK, Simon, I'm a robot, so I corrected the spelling. I guess I've been around longer than you, because I've seen bunches of discussions/debates/arguments on proper use of writing siteswaps. I've seen plenty of them on here and rec.juggling.

These may or may not talk about validity, but the last two may give you the insight into why some people don't care for them.

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siteswaps good or bad
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I have a general idea how they work, so I felt like I knew enough to say they were complex to me. I didn't know you had to know how something works to call it complex, anyway. I think brain surgery is complex, but I guess I'll have to learn how to do it before I can make that comment. If they seem simple to you, good for you. I find using the "Check Spelling" button extremely simple, so people have their different skills.


Dave, back to being a Variety Entertainer. "It's like anything that starts with the letter "V", is a dirty word." ~Carol Burnett

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anthonygatto
Forum Admin



USA
4280 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  17:48:36  Show Profile  Visit anthonygatto's Homepage Send anthonygatto a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's basically like Dave said. Siteswaps are a new juggling dialect. I have been juggling for some 30 something years and learned most patterns from what I was coached to learn. Other patterns came as a result of trial and error or sometimes even by making a mistake. For me to spend time learning a dialect that I really do not need would be a huge waste of my time. I can figure patterns out, apply them, then memoprize them, maybe in a way that's a better exercise for my brain to have to keep so many variations in my little computer that's in my head. I'm not against siteswaps, I just am not interested to learn the lingo. Plus, I am a performer therefore really have no use for it. Imagine how you must sound when you say to your director "now, did you like the 64x46x223 or would you rather me do a 5746628 to fill in the space on stage?" You know what your director would say.... "what the hell are you talking about, just do the one where you throw the ball high and keep juggling underneath." So your notation may be useful when talking to jugglers, but in the real world, it's pointless. It's really that simple, hopeefully everyone will read this thread and I will not have to explain myself anymore on it.

A.G.

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malec
Level 1



Ireland
13 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2008 :  18:36:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I always thought you were against siteswap full stop. I guess I was wrong then.
So your basic stance is: You do very well without it so you don't feel the need to learn it.
Fair enough.

I guess siteswap appeals to different abilities. For me it only took me about 20min of reading to understand it but I pretty much have maths hardwired into my brain at this stage and I have to figure out this type of stuff every day in college.
That's what I said is one of the disadvantages of siteswap. It's too mathematical (well not exactly but there's too much of the mathematical type of thinking involved). I'd love to see a system created that's more symbolic than number based.
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anthonygatto
Forum Admin



USA
4280 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2008 :  07:31:38  Show Profile  Visit anthonygatto's Homepage Send anthonygatto a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not against them like most think. I do not recommend most of the more complex ones for stage as the audience just will not get it. You have to remember, I think more like a performer than a juggler.

A.G.

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Rocknelives
Level 2



195 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2008 :  20:51:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by anthonygatto

I'm not against them like most think. I do not recommend most of the more complex ones for stage as the audience just will not get it. You have to remember, I think more like a performer than a juggler.

A.G.





I actually find that a 5 ball Highest-higher-high-medium-low.(97531) in siteswap language gets a good response from the audiance. I enjoy siteswaps partially because I enjoy numbers, but I can understand how people would find it difficult to understand siteswap. simple ones can get good reactions. Which is what I stick to the simple flashy siteswaps. as opposed to the complexed ones which can be like 3 tricks in one. I do agree with that. I think when you do a trick as long as the spacing is even a general audiance will understand it. of course people like high throws. so a high-low-low or any variance of how many low throws you do gets a good reaction.

Anthony, I know you don't like Watching videos but If you watch Marco Paoletti's ball videos alot of times he does some complexed siteswaps which I see as you recomending not be done on stage. Which I don't think many would do.
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anthonygatto
Forum Admin



USA
4280 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2008 :  08:47:05  Show Profile  Visit anthonygatto's Homepage Send anthonygatto a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

I actually find that a 5 ball Highest-higher-high-medium-low.(97531) in siteswap language gets a good response from the audiance.


Actually, that is a very nice looking trick. But also keep in mind the practicality of some of them. If you rely on using a lot of the higher throw type of SS, then you will be very limited in finding a venue high enough to display them. But if your shows consist of mainly street performances, then the sky's the limit!

A.G.

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Rocknelives
Level 2



195 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  17:44:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by anthonygatto

quote:

I actually find that a 5 ball Highest-higher-high-medium-low.(97531) in siteswap language gets a good response from the audiance.


Actually, that is a very nice looking trick. But also keep in mind the practicality of some of them. If you rely on using a lot of the higher throw type of SS, then you will be very limited in finding a venue high enough to display them. But if your shows consist of mainly street performances, then the sky's the limit!

A.G.





Yes, I luck out in having one of the Finest Theaters in the area at my highschool, So when I perform I have basically no limits, I try to do as much variety as possible. I like to be Creative in my presentation I enjoy combining things such as a routine I am working on which will use a folding chair possibly an end table as well. I keep within my comfortable limits, and I figure that I can make due most of the time with whatever I have available.
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manuel886202
Level 2



Peru
187 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  02:08:05  Show Profile  Visit manuel886202's Homepage  Send manuel886202 an AOL message  Click to see manuel886202's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by anthonygatto

I'm not against them like most think. I do not recommend most of the more complex ones for stage as the audience just will not get it. You have to remember, I think more like a performer than a juggler.

A.G.





Well, I think that a juggler should learn anything that makes him improve his coordination, accuracy and all that, so siteswaps are a good way of learning lots of tricks, very complex ones. I know that on stage is another thing, people won't understand most of them or none, haha. For some "mortals" (that's the way I like to call non jugglers) a 3 up 360 is the same as a 5 up 360 if they see that on stage. But if you're training or practicing, however you want to call it, I think you should learn everything you can.

Manuel Rospigliosi
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Dave Altman
Administrator



Georgia
621 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  07:29:18  Show Profile  Visit Dave Altman's Homepage Send Dave Altman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by manuel886202
...I think you should learn everything you can.

That sounds good, Manuel, but it's impossible to learn everything. Pushing yourself to learn more and to improve from day to day is a good goal, but since no one can possibly learn everything, even everything within their physical limits, a person has to select what they WANT to work on.

Tiger Woods is a golfer. I'm sure he could be a fairly decent juggler. He could learn poi, too. I bet he could learn to make women's dresses or learn to be a cook. Do you think he can learn to ride a unicycle? Drive a race car? Play a guitar? He can learn all of these things, but should he? Maybe he does a few of them, but he wouldn't be the best golfer in the world if he tried to learn everything he could.

There are things I know I CAN learn, in fact, there are things I CAN learn and WANT to learn, but I still don't do, at least not, yet. There is only so much time in the day and I only have a certain amount of motivation and energy to do stuff I want/can learn. So, it's impossible to do everything on my want/can learn list. Now, there is the even bigger list of what other people want me to do/learn. I have to ignore even more of those items.

"It's not that juggling causes additive personalities, but probably people with additive personalities are attracted to juggling." ~Dave Altman

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falco
Level 2



Germany
217 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  05:06:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
That sounds good, Manuel, but it's impossible to learn everything...


Well said, thatīs the reason why I quit 5/6/7... ball practice.
4-5 hours practice in a day is enough. But I like siteswaps anyway.
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anthonygatto
Forum Admin



USA
4280 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  16:00:19  Show Profile  Visit anthonygatto's Homepage Send anthonygatto a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a difficult task to balance how much time to devote on learning and practicing. It takes years and years and years to really evaluate what will be helpful in your career and what will only waste your time. When you are young like Manuel appears to be, the world is at your fingertips you want to conquer everything you can. With that motivation you very well should try your hand in as many things as you can. When you have over 3 decades of experience you should have by then, clearly defined your yourself and your future in what you are doing. I say to Manuel... learn all you can, that's great ambition, I say to myself, I'll sit back and drink a beer and relax with the knowledge that I have defined myself and know what I must do.

A.G.

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JugglerPeter
Level 2



USA
499 Posts

Posted - 05/13/2008 :  12:11:13  Show Profile  Visit JugglerPeter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Altman

Tiger Woods is a golfer. I'm sure he could be a fairly decent juggler. He could learn poi, too. I bet he could learn to make women's dresses or learn to be a cook. Do you think he can learn to ride a unicycle? Drive a race car? Play a guitar? He can learn all of these things, but should he? Maybe he does a few of them, but he wouldn't be the best golfer in the world if he tried to learn everything he could.





Am I the only one who read this and pictured Tiger woods doing poi while riding a unicycle in a dress?
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