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Dave Altman
Administrator


Georgia
621 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2007 :  21:46:51  Show Profile  Visit Dave Altman's Homepage Send Dave Altman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
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No, I didn't know that. Not that I consider myself an artsy juggler, but I was banned from that forum for speaking my mind and having another point of view other than the norm or the majority of that forum. I posted occasionally on that forum, but not to bash it or complain about it's views or policies, until Garfield started a thread called DAVE ALTMAN in order to call me out, which was the exact reason he, himself, stated. He started that thread just to start an argument, not to debate me or calmly discuss any differences, but to just personally insult me and pick on the most trivial of things.
quote:
So long as they try to understand at least some of the view points of sport jugglers and obviously not take the absoloute mickey out of sport juggglers/juggling.Very rarely is their an Anti-Anthony post up their-it's a shame that there are so many Anti-WJF posts here.

I think this forum does try to understand some of the views of sport jugglers and is, at least tolerant enough to have this Sport Juggling/Siteswaps area. The "Jason Garfield" thread or several other threads started supporting him, the WJF, or sport juggling in general, have not been locked here, but the WJF forum did lock a thread called "Anthony Gatto." So, that is why you don't see anti-Anthony Gatto posts, because NO posts on him are allowed there. There may be anti-Garfield/WJF posts here, but there are posts that praise or support him and the WJF, as well.

If you don't believe there is total censorship on certain topics on the WJF forum, try and start a thread praising Anthony, myself, circuses, clowning, or several other topics that don't fit in Garfield's view of juggling.

It's ridiculous to even imply that the WJF forum is more tolerate than here. Jason Garfield is still a member of this forum and hasn't been banned, like I was from his forum for having a different opinion.
quote:
I can't wait for the time to come for someone to build a major juggling forum with a mixture of sport and creative AND Anthony supporters as members.

You don't have to wait, it's here. There is a mixture of sport jugglers, creative jugglers, and Anthony supporters on this forum.
quote:
Well, theres always R.J but theirs often the odd sport art 'debate' (not argument) posted. then maybe people will realise that true juggling involves anything and everything. Yes, teir is such thing as juggling as a sport, art, and creative skill all in one. They don't divide ice skating into sport, art, creative skill-they just accept that it is and should always be them all. I apologise for getting involved in the debate myself however, I am not either either-I'm ALL! so STOP moaning about the WJF! STOP arguing over what we all enjoy!
Thank you...
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Adrian Pole

It's not moaning, it's expressing differing opinions. That is what a forum is. If you took out the "moaning" as you are calling it, there wouldn't be any forums. Debate is a good thing. It's when it's reduced to childish name calling that it is bad and a total waste of time.


"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something." ~ Plato

BWezz
Level 2



USA
323 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  07:01:11  Show Profile  Send BWezz an ICQ Message  Click to see BWezz's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Well said!

We are Borg, resistance is futile.
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felonioustub
Level 1

Australia
21 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  09:27:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As I'm pretty new to this whole juggling world, I was pretty surprised when I stumbled upon these issues. I thought juggling was juggling and we were all about having a good time doing what we enjoy. I didn't realise there were two completely different camps on the subject.
I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that feel the same as me and don't really care whether you call yourself a sport juggler or an artistic juggler, as long as you're a juggler.
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AndyB
Level 3



United Kingdom
646 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  09:41:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
^^^

I agree, felonioustub! Who'd have thunk that something as innocuous as juggling could harbour such backbiting and insider rivalry! I told a couple of non-juggler mates about this and they found it utterly hilarious, not to mention a little bit tragic.

----------------------------------------

AndyB: "The World's Most Average Juggler"
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Rocknelives
Level 2



195 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  10:00:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Altman

I think this forum does try to understand some of the views of sport jugglers and is, at least tolerant enough to have this Sport Juggling/Siteswaps area.



I don't know Dave, Tolerance isn't the first word that comes to mind quite personally I feel like this forum is only here so that Anthony doesn't have to deal with people who believe that juggling is infact a sport. And also that people who enjoy numbers and the numbers of siteswap don't take up space where Anthony posts. Just my thought.
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anthonygatto
Forum Admin



USA
4280 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  10:35:35  Show Profile  Visit anthonygatto's Homepage Send anthonygatto a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a funny story. As many of you know I am teaching a little girl right now. She has progressed very nicely... 6 ball flash in 3 months. Although I don't gauge her progress on this accomplishment but I feel it may mean something to some of you. The other day I was working on 3 balls tricks with her. I showed her a 3 ball video and told her there were a lot of great 3 and 4 ball jugglers out there that don't perform. She looked at me inquisitively and said really? If you don't want to perform it then why do it? I laughed out loud and said honestly I don't know.

A.G.

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Dave Altman
Administrator



Georgia
621 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  11:10:48  Show Profile  Visit Dave Altman's Homepage Send Dave Altman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rocknelives
I don't know Dave, Tolerance isn't the first word that comes to mind quite personally I feel like this forum is only here so that Anthony doesn't have to deal with people who believe that juggling is infact a sport. And also that people who enjoy numbers and the numbers of siteswap don't take up space where Anthony posts. Just my thought.

Well, since Anthony just posted here and has done in the past, your feelings aren't totally accurate, right? However, there is some truth to that. Siteswaps are a bunch of uninteresting numbers that mean nothing if you aren't interested in them. There are enough topics concerning juggling that don't involve them so that everyone can relate to them in the general discussion area and people that are into them can discuss them in this area. It's a way of organizing the forum, just like putting all the videos in one area or topics on vending/promotion/festivals in another. If something is allowed anywhere on the forum, it is encouraged or at least tolerated.

Also, tolerance is the first word that should come to mind, since it fits rather nicely.

"Toleration and tolerance are terms used in social, cultural and religious contexts to describe attitudes and practices that prohibit discrimination against those whose practices or group memberships may be disapproved of by those in the majority." ~From: You must be logged in to see this link.

If someone calls themselves a sport juggler, they aren't discriminated against, here. As long as someone is civil and presents good arguments or points, they can express them. Being disrespectful to Anthony or anyone else because they don't share the same views is not allowed and will be dealt with in some form or the other, though. So, don't confuse those separate issues.

By allowing posts defending sport juggling/WJF/Garfield is showing tolerance, pure and simple. What word does come to mind if that isn't the proper word? If you would say it's intolerance, that is not correct. If the forum was being intolerant, everyone that said they were a sport juggler would be removed and no discussions like we are having now, would be done; and that isn't the case. If you have a better suited word, I'd like to hear it.

Being tolerant doesn't mean agreeing with all views. Flaws in certain views might be pointed out and alternate viewpoints might be expressed and supported. Personal attacks that have nothing to do with the views should be avoided by everyone.

BTW, I've held the view that juggling can be a sport for several years. I have nothing against people that want to do juggling as a hobby/sport. I'm not a big fan of juggling competitions, but I've competed myself in the past, but beating people as never been a top priority for me. I enjoy watching competitions for the juggling, without being too concerned about who wins. I realize that is what some people are into, but it's easy to go overboard with competing/comparing jugglers. I wish people would stop saying or asking if juggling is a sport or an art. 98% agree that it can be both, so why keep bringing it up to convince the 2% of the people that think it's one or the other? That is a waste of time and everyone's energy would be better channeled into another issue with more interesting views.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something." ~ Plato
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Sondre
Level 5



Norway
3549 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  13:04:09  Show Profile  Visit Sondre's Homepage  Send Sondre an AOL message  Click to see Sondre's MSN Messenger address  Send Sondre a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by anthonygatto

I showed her a 3 ball video and told her there were a lot of great 3 and 4 ball jugglers out there that don't perform. She looked at me inquisitively and said really? If you don't want to perform it then why do it? I laughed out loud and said honestly I don't know.




*cough*

I would assume that most jugglers do it because they like doing it; they like doing something they are good at, and they enjoy seeing hemselves progressing and being able to do things they didn't use to be able to do; they enjoy being able to do something they know makes them special(in a way). They enjoy having something to do that is fun; as Ben Beever points out, juggling creates pretty patterns in the air, and humans like pretty patterns(and you should know that pretty well); most people also "feel clever when being able to handle things, or things in a different way, than what is considered to be normal".

Can you honestly say that you do not like to juggle by yourself; to see yourself become a better juggler, to progress and be able to to more and better tricks or its like; the only reason you od it, is because you enoy showing people amazing things? I would say juggling is a pretty bad choice then...



Sondre, or something
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Dave Altman
Administrator



Georgia
621 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  13:30:36  Show Profile  Visit Dave Altman's Homepage Send Dave Altman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yomay
...Can you honestly say that you do not like to juggle by yourself; to see yourself become a better juggler, to progress and be able to to more and better tricks or its like; the only reason you od it, is because you enoy showing people amazing things? I would say juggling is a pretty bad choice then...

~sigh~ Sondre, people that have been juggling a while have changing or complex reasons for juggling, sometimes you love it, other times it's a bother. It amazes me that you would tell Anthony that his choices for juggling would be bad...


"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something." ~ Plato
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Mutton
Level 5

USA
2488 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  16:11:30  Show Profile  Visit Mutton's Homepage  Send Mutton an AOL message Send Mutton a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by anthonygatto

I have a funny story. As many of you know I am teaching a little girl right now. She has progressed very nicely... 6 ball flash in 3 months. Although I don't gauge her progress on this accomplishment but I feel it may mean something to some of you. The other day I was working on 3 balls tricks with her. I showed her a 3 ball video and told her there were a lot of great 3 and 4 ball jugglers out there that don't perform. She looked at me inquisitively and said really? If you don't want to perform it then why do it? I laughed out loud and said honestly I don't know.

A.G.





Hint: It's really fun!


Andrew Gradisher
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anthonygatto
Forum Admin



USA
4280 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  16:35:14  Show Profile  Visit anthonygatto's Homepage Send anthonygatto a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:


*cough*

I would assume that most jugglers do it because they like doing it; they like doing something they are good at, and they enjoy seeing hemselves progressing and being able to do things they didn't use to be able to do; they enjoy being able to do something they know makes them special(in a way). They enjoy having something to do that is fun; as Ben Beever points out, juggling creates pretty patterns in the air, and humans like pretty patterns(and you should know that pretty well); most people also "feel clever when being able to handle things, or things in a different way, than what is considered to be normal".

Can you honestly say that you do not like to juggle by yourself; to see yourself become a better juggler, to progress and be able to to more and better tricks or its like; the only reason you od it, is because you enoy showing people amazing things? I would say juggling is a pretty bad choice then...



Sondre, or something



*Fart* Since we seem to be starting with bodily activity.

Yes Sondre, I juggle to perform it, and that is the reason I juggle. I like to entertain, I use juggling as a means to entertain people. When I go to a festival such a Monte Carlo or Paris , the ultimate reason is to be seen... trophies are secondary. As proud as I am to have won so many golds, my reason for going were not for the awards.

When I say why juggle if you don't perform it let me ask you this - If you juggled in a room all of your life and never showed anyone one small trick, not even a cascade, would you still want to juggle? If the fruits of you years of labor and hard work were never seen by anyone ever, would you still want to juggle? Well here is the answer, no. You want to show people... look what I can do! Therefore that brings us to the fact that you are a performer, in one way or another. All of the sport jugglers are performers, they just don't admit it nor resemble it but inadvertently they are.

A.G.

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dtrov06
Level 3



USA
971 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  17:43:56  Show Profile  Send dtrov06 an AOL message Send dtrov06 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by anthonygatto



If you juggled in a room all of your life and never showed anyone one small trick, not even a cascade, would you still want to juggle? If the fruits of you years of labor and hard work were never seen by anyone ever, would you still want to juggle? Well here is the answer, no.

A.G.





*vomit*
(that was nothing against your post anthony, just keeping with the bodily function trend)

while i don't entirely agree with that statement, i don't entirely disagree. yes, i have been a performer before, in fact, i have been in close to, maybe more than, 100 juggling shows in my life. and that was all with my high school club. i no longer perform with a troupe, or at all. some of friends tell me they keep me around just to show me off, and once in a while, they will ask me to juggle at a party, completely spur of the moment. i usually do a few tricks, drop a lot (i'm usually juggling socks for these spontaneous events), and lose everyone's interest after about 5 minutes. currently though, i enjoy juggling as strictly a hobby, trying to be creative for my sake and my sanity at THIS point in my life, i wouldn't be happier/disappointed if i never got to perform again, regardless of how good i get. grant it, if one day i am able to do 9 ball pirouettes and 7 club crotch throws, i might make a comeback but i'm sure that there are a very few good jugglers out there who we have never heard of, and might never hear from them because they choose not to perform at all

___________________________

GO TRIBE!!!!

ricky dimitrov


Edited by - dtrov06 on 10/08/2007 17:45:24
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kiljo
Level 2



135 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2007 :  23:34:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by anthonygatto

[quote]
When I say why juggle if you don't perform it let me ask you this - If you juggled in a room all of your life and never showed anyone one small trick, not even a cascade, would you still want to juggle? If the fruits of you years of labor and hard work were never seen by anyone ever, would you still want to juggle? Well here is the answer, no. You want to show people... look what I can do! Therefore that brings us to the fact that you are a performer, in one way or another. All of the sport jugglers are performers, they just don't admit it nor resemble it but inadvertently they are.

A.G.





I cant agree with this statement, even though it is probably correct for a lot of people. I do plenty of things for myself that I could care less if other people see. When I play a game of solitare or free cell on the computer, it is to pass the time. When I get bored of that I may juggle, to pass the time. I dont really see a need to go and show someone a trick that I find cool if they will just tell me that there was this one time that they were watching a guy on the interweb do a trick and it had like 50 balls in the air and he totally did a double backfilp! And then procede to ask me if I can do that...

I guess that feeling the need to show other people depends on why you juggle. For me, the same reason I dont brag about winning solitare, I dont brag about juggling. Its just a pastime that I have taken up because its enjoyable.

Proud to be a hokie.
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Sondre
Level 5



Norway
3549 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2007 :  05:38:10  Show Profile  Visit Sondre's Homepage  Send Sondre an AOL message  Click to see Sondre's MSN Messenger address  Send Sondre a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by anthonygatto

quote:


*cough*

I would assume that most jugglers do it because they like doing it; they like doing something they are good at, and they enjoy seeing hemselves progressing and being able to do things they didn't use to be able to do; they enjoy being able to do something they know makes them special(in a way). They enjoy having something to do that is fun; as Ben Beever points out, juggling creates pretty patterns in the air, and humans like pretty patterns(and you should know that pretty well); most people also "feel clever when being able to handle things, or things in a different way, than what is considered to be normal".

Can you honestly say that you do not like to juggle by yourself; to see yourself become a better juggler, to progress and be able to to more and better tricks or its like; the only reason you od it, is because you enoy showing people amazing things? I would say juggling is a pretty bad choice then...



Sondre, or something



*Fart* Since we seem to be starting with bodily activity.

Yes Sondre, I juggle to perform it, and that is the reason I juggle. I like to entertain, I use juggling as a means to entertain people. When I go to a festival such a Monte Carlo or Paris , the ultimate reason is to be seen... trophies are secondary. As proud as I am to have won so many golds, my reason for going were not for the awards.

When I say why juggle if you don't perform it let me ask you this - If you juggled in a room all of your life and never showed anyone one small trick, not even a cascade, would you still want to juggle? If the fruits of you years of labor and hard work were never seen by anyone ever, would you still want to juggle? Well here is the answer, no. You want to show people... look what I can do! Therefore that brings us to the fact that you are a performer, in one way or another. All of the sport jugglers are performers, they just don't admit it nor resemble it but inadvertently they are.

A.G.





*burp*

I would make that "some of them don't admit it" but oh well.

Ok, I see your point. Then "performer" only means "person that shows something to someone at some point"? ok.

And one thing; The reason I said juggling would be a bad choice for entertaining, is that it's not the best way to entertain(bizzarely enough.). Well, if "as entertaining as it is" is good enough, as I guess it is, then this part of the discussion is pretty pointless... I was just thinking that if you wanted to be as entertaining as possible, there would probably be other things you could entertain people with; entertain them more with, and in a larger scale. You could be an actor or a football player as an example. That wouldn't quite be the same kind of entertainment though... Oh wait, here I cornered myself. I guess you would know what I mean by saying that



Sondre, or something
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Dave Altman
Administrator



Georgia
621 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2007 :  06:38:43  Show Profile  Visit Dave Altman's Homepage Send Dave Altman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yomay
And one thing; The reason I said juggling would be a bad choice for entertaining...I was just thinking that if you wanted to be as entertaining as possible, there would probably be other things you could entertain people with; entertain them more with, and in a larger scale.

Yeah, now if Pavarotti had only learned to tap dance, he might have been a pretty good entertainer. Too bad he just did that singing thing.

You must be logged in to see this link.


"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something." ~ Plato
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BWezz
Level 2



USA
323 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2007 :  07:46:01  Show Profile  Send BWezz an ICQ Message  Click to see BWezz's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Pavarotti didn't tap dance???

We are Borg, resistance is futile.
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